Nicholas Chan
Tue, 12/25/2007 - 17:58 — nicholaschan
What is your motivation for being a member of the Drupal Association?:
I have been working with various Opensource projects over the past 3 years, assisting them in my small ways as a technically trained businessperson, giving "fresh eyes" feedback on "softskills" matters concerning usability, end-user feedback and workflow in the hopes of making the projects more professional and more rapidly assimilated by the worldwide user community.
I believe that Opensource projects that embraces and actively builds a strong commercial 3rd party developer pillar will not only grow, but thrive as users are able to benefit by having a vast selection of themes, modules and services and as service providers are encouraged to contribute to the growth of Drupal and its users and to make a just wage for an honest service provided.
I truly believe in the Drupal community, having seen the professionalism, maturity, lack of politics and no major code forks/team splits since its initial foundings and I wish to contribute of my skillsets and knowledge of the Asia Pacific market in helping Drupal to grow further.
What are the primary goals you would like to work on?:
Goals for 2008
- Initiate advocacy-and-adoption activities within South East Asia.
- Improving on usability by better bridging users and developers terminology, requirements and expectations.
- Set the ground right for a supportive and vibrant 3rd party developer representation within Drupal Association.
Goals for 2009 - 2012
- Ramp up advocacy-and-adoption activities within South East Asia, including but not limited to initiating drupalcons and classroom adoption initiatives (much like what Joomla! Thailand has done very successfully to get Joomla! training as part of school syllabus in a number of universities).
- Attract and retain users and experts from the creative/design/usability industry, balancing the overall community and contributing much needed and lacking expertise.
- Continue work on building up a vibrant 3rd party developer ecosystem, able to meet key areas of drupal work for end users, including but not limited to theming houses, software packages and turnkey site development services.
What strategy will you employ in order to accomplish said goals?:
The top 5 points taken from the Drupal survey and the action points are:
Work on/Fund drupal.org improvements: I see this point to be achievable via a 2 prong approach, namely 1.) growing the developer ecosystem, and encouraging them to contribute via vital add-ons and/or donation of some percentage of their revenue and 2.) increased sponsorship from hardware vendors apart from Sun and IBM. This would be much easier due to the tax writeoff benefits that the non-profit Drupal association can provide to its sponsors. This can also include donations from the community that can benefit from the tax writeoffs also.
Invest in more hardware to support Drupal growth: As above, we are to explore additional partnerships with hardware vendors, using Sun as an example.
Award grants/bounties for compelling ideas: Apart from having one-off type bounties/grants, a systemic approach to encourage budding drupal development houses to adopt or develop key modules; a conscious effort to minimize the number of "me too" projects would also be put in place to maximize value to both users and the development houses (learning from the mistakes of Joomla!). This would have the benefit of entrenching the development houses further into the Drupal community by each having a stable of quality modules, increasing both awareness and sales thus enabling them to make a proper living by committing to Drupal development.
Provide visibility for interesting drupal projects: A well structured marketplace of supply (users) and demand (developers, themers, module shops, infrastructure hosters) will naturally allow the market to decide. More importantly, the openness to accept and display any projects that can positively impact Drupal (ie. Drupaltin) must be put in place. Adopting a similar approach to Amazon, SourceForge or even Joomla! Extensions site would be a start, with ratings, reviews, features and even "buy it now" functions which would allow the association to have a small revenue stream from the sale of Drupal addons. Additionally, as clearly articulated in http://buytaert.net/drupal-distributions the strategy of growing the entire drupal ecosystem will eventually allow for such a marketplace to self sustain and manage itself.
Attract more people to help improve the infrastructure: As can be seen by the success of the Google Highly Open Program, the collective power of students is a force to be reckoned with. By learning from the runaway success of Joomla! Thailand, where Joomla! is now part of classroom syllabus for a number of universities, a similar approach can be explored in Asian countries such as Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia of which the respective governments have established a strong thrust in IT growth by its policies and incentives. This would lead to a near-inexhaustible supply of GHOP-type miniprojects that can be undertaken as classroom assignments, while simultaneously increasing the pool of potential drupal professionals in a linear growth pattern (assuming drupal becomes syllabus, there is x number of students every year in every university going through the course, of which we assume y number of students will consider a career in professional drupal development).
Industrial contacts
SINGAPORE: I work directly with the Media Development Authority of Singapore in the areas of Interactive Digital Media in the capacity of a mentor and startup incubator. I am also connected to the Infocom Development Authority of Singapore. In the education sector, I work directly with the InfoComm departments in 4 of the 5 Polytechnics in Singapore.
MALAYSIA: I work directly with the Cradle Fund Snd Bhd (under the Malaysia Venture Capital Management Bhd, a public company owned by the Malaysian Government) as a commercializing partner and mentor in the areas of InfoComm and high technology.
THAILAND: I am in direct contact with the Chairman of the 17 Northern provinces of the Software Industry Promotion Agency (Public Organization) of Thailand.
VIETNAM: In my course of work, I work with various universities within Ho Chi Minh City to hire IT staffing. I would attempt to lobby with them to include drupal as part of their syllabus.
What yearly budget would you need in order to accomplish said goals?:
At the present moment, I am not certain on how far the association would wish to proceed on the said initiatives and I will only create a budget upon understanding the situation further.
What strengths/experience you have to help you accomplish the goals?:
I have spent over 2 decades of my life in various areas of IT, from BBSes to coding in Turbo Pascal, from working in AT&T GIS to running an SME IT consultancy firm in Singapore, I possess a good mix of experience with regards to business computing which, put in the context of contributing to Drupal, allows me to understand first and foremost how a technological project is run and secondly, on how to communicate layman end user requirements to technical people.
I received training in the creative arts by graduating from Ngee Ann Polytechnic with a Diploma in Film, Sound and Video, with specializations in Sound Engineering and 3D graphics and minors in Marketing, PR and Advertising. This provides me with deeper understanding and appreciation on usability issues and aesthetics, of which my contribution to Drupal would be on pushing forward, providing and implementing (if possible) key improvements in workflow, interfacing and design specifically to improving the user experience.
In my present line of work (early stage venture capital and startup incubation), my role requires me to be highly analytical and perform deep research into markets, due diligence on individuals and other similarly trying tasks. Additionally, I am the acting spokesperson and "pitchman" for nearly all the startups under my care due to the fact that I can sell any concept as long as I understand it sufficiently well. This traits allows me to contribute to Drupal as not just an evangelist, but as someone who can sell the concept to the right people and the right organizations.
How long have you been using Drupal, and how'd you get your start?:
I have been using Drupal for slightly over a year; I found Drupal after growing weary of the Joomla! vs. 3rd Party Developers war that was waged and was inspired to start after reading a post from Dries blog supportive of commercial drupal outfits at http://buytaert.net/commercial-drupal-training and made my decision to stay and grow with a CMS that is run by a matured and level headed management team, lead by a leader that is clear on the direction of the project and more importantly, respects the fact that entrepreneurship and Opensource projects goes hand in hand.
Have you made existing community contributions, and if so, what?:
I have volunteered in my church, St Mary of the Angels in the capacity of a photographer and IT for their website. I volunteer in the Youth Praise Ministry (now known as Amplify Ministries) in the areas of general operations and also sponsor their website and domain name registration.
I assist in various Meet-the-people sessions assisting various Singapore ministers (members of parliament) in helping Singapore citizens on their various problems, in particular I provide informal legal assistance and guidance in appeals to the various statutory boards in Singapore.
I am a co-founder and volunteer in Project:Senso Ltd, a non-profit entrepreneur volunteer organization based in Singapore. I am the interim co-ordinator for 2007/08 and I look after the partnership and strategic planning aspects of the organization.
How much time can you invest in your Drupal Association work?:
10 hours/month
Apply for Board of Directors membership:
Apply for Board of Directors membership
Board of Directors position:
3rd Party Developers Lobbist
Comments
There is something I don't
There is something I don't understand/like in your application. You are applying for the Board of Directors as 3rd party Developers Lobbist while you are saying in different posts:
I am not a programmer.
my understanding is that the Drupal Association goal is to allow the end users to have a voice;
I aim to give these users a voice and to put in place a feedback system that would allow the end users to truly communicate and be heard.
I think of an end user as someone very unlike a developer, however you want to work for end users voice as a developer lobbist. Let me say, with all my respect, that your discursiveness doesn't seem right as it confuses me, although I have read all the comments here.
I wouldn't vote for your proposed position at the Board.
Joomla vs. 3PD war
Could you provide a link off to a forum post or what have you about this? I'm not sure exactly to what this is referring.
I'm personally anti-commercialization of our module downloads. It's kind of pointless anyway, because all modules must be GPLed. I believe there are benefits to it, but I also believe that a huge reason on why there hasn't been any epic Drupal vs. 3PD war is because all of our extensions are free. :) I'm also an open source hippie. ;) However, as Kieran already stated, this is out of scope of powers of the Drupal Association, in any case.
The idea of getting Drupal into class curriculum is certainly exciting, and we always welcome more folks with marketing/design backgrounds.
Joomla vs 3PDs
Good day Angela,
Thank you for reviewing my application. By the Joomla! vs 3PD statement I made, I am making reference to the happenings-at-large that I have been observing and (previous) experiencing in my old consulting/development firm in late 2005 - 2006. A quick peek into http://jcd-a.org will give you an idea of the abuses the 3PDs has been subjected to from the Joomla! core team.
Just for the record, I am not meaning to commercialize core Drupal module; I am meaning to provide a voice and protection for developers/entrepreneurs that desires to develop Drupal for a living (like yourself) to do so, without fear of the core team or the association silently changing by-laws or terminology (such as the Joomla! silent removal of the rider in the GPL, then subsequently claiming it never existed, then forcing every 3PD to change their working model to GPL support-only business models).
This does not discriminate against any developer that would develop say, a highly sophisticated events calendar for Drupal (ie. Thyme) that can also be a concert events planner that is sold as a custom module (product-for-all approach which worked very well in Joomla! for DIY end user rapid deployments) against someone who develops/designs purely custom work on Drupal for their clients (something like what most Drupal developers are already doing). And as what I mentioned before, I see my role as being someone who 1.) encourages entrepreneurship in developers, 2.) defend their right to make an honest living and 3.) encourage the developers to contribute (in cash or kind) to the Drupal community-at-large and Association.
On making Drupal development classroom curriculum, I believe I have the connections and ability to personally sell this idea to the right people in Singapore, what matters is that is there someone within the Association that can muster up an "Education director" role and team to build materials which can be provided to the teachers, particularly in getting "train the trainers" sessions running. With these basic infrastructure support in place, this would put Drupal on fertile grounds for rapidly and exponentially building grassroots student-developer outreach in Asia.
module licenses and Drupal "core team"
Hi Nicholas,
Two things I wanted to clarify because it seems you might be confused, but maybe not.
Dries has made several "pro business" statements and I think that comes partially from a realization that businesses/entrepreneurs making money from an OSS project will ultimately benefit all users of that project. I agree with your analysis that Dries/Drupal are "pro business" in general. However, Drupal is currently GPL with little likelihood of changing. Based on discussions with various lawyers the commonly held belief in the Drupal community is that "Drupal modules" must also be GPL. I put "Drupal module" in quotes because there are ways of interacting with Drupal which would not require the application to be GPL, but any module file that is released to multiple customers would be covered. You can see the discussion on the Devel list from this past year with the subject "Modules that integrate non-GPL PHP apps violate the GPL." If you want to further discuss this point, please read the whole thread and sub-threads from the Development mailing list first. There is also a very strong community consensus that all modules should be hosted on Drupal.org and not distributed from other places.
The "core team" of Drupal is everyone in the project. Welcome to it :) The concept of "core team" in the same way that Mambo/Joomla! has one. Instead there is a very small group of core committers who review patches, but who are reliant on other people to volunteer their time to actually write the code. Similarly, the Drupal Association has a specific purpose that is not completely similar to OSM/Core Team. So, being a member of the Association may not be all that valuable for the goals you wish to achieve.
The goal of yours I see that is really relevant to the Association is the advocacy-and-adoption work which is of course very important.
Modules and GPL
Good day Greggles,
Thank you for your response. I am in agreement that Drupal is GPL. What I have stated above in my various statements is for the encouragement and support towards commercial Drupal developers; Drupal will always remain GPL, but my view is that if a whole new work (ie. novel, custom) is created (ie. the various custom modules within sites like Amnesty which bridges Alfresco to Drupal) and of which the Drupal developer earns from it, and choses to resell that script, I would respect that the custom code made by that developer is owned fairly by both the client and the developer.
This brings issues such as the various vBulletin integration packages into question; we cannot insist and demand vBulletin to become GPL or stop doing business, and we cannot insist that users stop asking for such an integration. That should not inconvenience users nor prevent developers desirous in creating a solution from being sidelined (ie. Drupaltin).
As mentioned in an earlier post, should my proposed role be unneeded, I would be glad to contribute in either the "Legal Affairs Director" position (my understanding of law is based on the UK subset that is practiced in Singapore) or the "Local Events Coordinator" for Singapore and Malaysia (for 2008).
modules are gpl as well
we cannot insist and demand vBulletin to become GPL or stop doing business, and we cannot insist that users stop asking for such an integration.
Actually, that was one point I was trying to make. That the current understanding based on that thread is that the integration modules must be GPL themselves and that it's possible that the Drupal project could take action to stop people from distributing those modules.
This is something the association needs to investigate and has identified as a goal to get a better understand of it. It sounds like you didn't read the thread I linked to. I know it's a long and detailed thread, but if you want to be an expert on this subject as it relates to Drupal you really should read it.
GPL contrib modules
Good day Greggles,
Rolling back to the bigger picture on my statement. My main objectives as mentioned again is to communicate and provide a voice to end users and developers, and defending the rights to the developers to make a living from doing development for Drupal.
As per my last post:
This brings issues such as the various vBulletin integration packages into question; we cannot insist and demand vBulletin to become GPL or stop doing business, and we cannot insist that users stop asking for such an integration. That should not inconvenience users nor prevent developers desirous in creating a solution from being sidelined (ie. Drupaltin).
I have read that thread a few months back when I was researching on Drupaltin and that was one of the many reasons why I felt strongly enough to apply into the Association. I aim to help, not by development, but by encouraging and developing a fertile ecosystem of developers. And in my view, for that to happen, we have to give the developers the right to their business model, subject to their full respect and non-violation of the GPL of Drupal proper. In this case, quoting directly from the discussion, I am more with David Strauss on this matter.
>> As long as Drupal core is GPL-clean, I think this is acceptable. I don't
>> think anyone but a lawyer would be qualified to do the policing, anyway
>
> Isn't that to live by double standard? Why is it okay to violate the GPL
> when it comes to modules, but not when it comes to the core itself?
I didn't say it was OK. I said it wasn't worth policing contributed modules.
While we may continue to reject and vilify developers that do not go the GPL route, doing something that the community wants (ie. Drupaltin), is that really going to help build the vibrant ecosystem for Drupal? Are we wasting time, PR and not meeting users requests/needs by being overly legalistic? Would there is a better way? In my role within the Association, I would see myself as a person who would be looking into providing recommendations (but not demanding), how to address, and feedback on such issues like exploring FLOSS exceptions and Controlled Interface Exception and on how it would impact the ecosystem at large.
My views mirror those of Thomas Barregren on the above matter:
For an example, imagine someone who has put in a lot of effort to write code that integrates a popular but proprietary software with Drupal. So far it is okay under GPL. But now he wants to share his effort with the community. Since the integration code calls functions and share data structures with both the proprietary software and Drupal, it is not allowed.
Fortunately, there is a solution. As long as you don't revoke any rights granted by GPL, you can add your own terms and conditions. This can be used to allow integration with software under a license incompatible with GPL. Two examples on this:
* http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#GPLIncompatibl...
* http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#LinkingOverCon...
So, to solve the problem that the licensing of Drupal currently force us to "dumbing down" or "bypassing of established application methodologies", I suggest that the Drupal licensing is supplemented with an exception for module developers linking through hooks.
To me, the users and developers are far greater concerns than legalistic barriers that, while protecting the project, may hinder its growth. Legal agreements are merely frameworks, of which relevant and pertinent changes can and should be made, when appropriate, to fit the needs of the users and community at large.
Laura Scott addresses my feelings well on this matter, when we have developers who are willing to go the extra mile to make something users wants, and then they are restricted by GPL distribution restrictions, who really benefits?
> Perhaps you meant some kind of web services API, like a REST
> interface. That's a little more borderline.
> There could also be other ways to construct the bridge that even more
> clearly avoid making a derivative work. For example, if the bridge didn't
> call functions from either program, and instead just read from or wrote to
> their underlying databases directly, that probably wouldn't create a
> derivative work. If there were command-line tools available that the
> bridge could call to help with its work, using system() or similar
> functionality, that probably wouldn't make a derivative work either.
> I should also point out that if CMS developers want to make this sort of
> bridge development unambiguously okay, they could do so by providing some
> sort of licensing exception as described at
> .
> This requires the assent of all the copyright holders, so I realize it may
> not be a feasible option for every free CMS, but it is out there.
This reasoning seems to employ arguments made by the RIAA and MPAA, except to opposite effect.
I write this as a GPL advocate and a big believer in open source. GPL open source software is greatly advantaged to dominate the software world eventually, but trying to force that through legal ownership assertions strikes me as a great way to undermine the whole movement. For example, this API argument: by prohibiting use of APIs to bridge differently-licensed applications (and aren't APIs developed *precisely* to bridge two different applications?) we're forcing a "dumbing down" of work (and sundry other potential problems and risks) by legally requiring the bypassing of established application methodologies (such as security protocols) to write direct queries to databases.
How are we going to build an integrated world when GPL starts claiming rights to all that touch it? We're going from the freedom that comes from building a commons to the restriction that comes from making that commons a fenced-in zoo.
Maybe I'm wrong and going off in high spirits for no reason. The net result, I fear, is the creation of a GPL ghetto where anybody with one foot in the proprietary -- i.e., real -- world is given reason to hesitate coming within a country mile of GPL, just when GPL apps are poised (and have already started) to transform the mainstream business world.
Vivek Purl wrote:
> Just for background this issue has come up because
> Joomla have decided to "fully" comply with GPL. This
> raised a few question for SMF team and they discussed
> it with FSF. The final result of that discussion is if
> php ( or any other scripting language ) which is
> distributed in source form is bridged to a non GPL
> software also distributed in source form then it
> violates the GPL.
> The immediate effect for drupal is that VB and SMF
> bridges are violating GPL. It doesn't matter if its
> being distributed via d.o. or not.
So GPL apps are prohibited from touching non-GPL apps. I'll be snarky and say this is the kind of thing that happens when lawyers get involved. Time to stop developing software and start developing new licenses and lawsuits!
Laura (who's still wondering what was wrong with GPLv2)
rant
"and defending the rights to the developers to make a living from doing development for Drupal."
I mostly stay out of legal discussions, but I have to jump in to point out Drupal is free. To say anyone has a right to make a living from development for Drupal is a bit overboard. I think the limits of rights are bound to what's listed in the US Bill of Rights. If the Board had the power and were to decide to make the whole project closed source, you could do this cool thing called forking and continue off the last GPL copy you could checkout.
I don't think that scenario would happen, especially with the non-profit charge of the DA. For those reviewing voting me in, I plan on pretty much abstaining from licensing decisions. I just get bugged about entitlements.
Reply to rant
Good day David,
As I mention repeatedly in my application, my objectives is on 1.) providing a voice and 2.) defending developers right to make a living. What the big picture goal is to encourage the build-up of a vibrant and active ecosystem, and the role of developers providing the supply to the users demand.
As much as Drupal is free as in opensource/free speech, I aim to ensure that developers that operate on any other business model that is not GPL, they will have their place within the community, and that they will not be ostracized. That is all. The issue here is that most of the response to my statement "defending developers right to make a living" tend to be pushing me towards the legal aspects when my goal is towards the community.
I am glad that you have made your stance, but I also do ask whoever reviewing my application to note that I am talking about encouraging and building the developer community to better serve the user community from the very beginning, and I spoke nothing about making Drupal chargeable or any less GPL than it already is, and that only if this role I am proposing is unwanted/unneeded in the eyes of the presiding committee, that I counter-proposed 2 alternate roles I feel I can best contribute in.
I think you must have missed
I think you must have missed out on exactly how Drupal came to be and who plays what roles now. Look around at the board members and permanent members as they are now and probably will remain in after this election. They and myself are willing to volunteer for no compensation from DA because we already make a living from Drupal. Some own companies, work for companies, consult for others, use Drupal as the platform for hosting, and for the most part, they're all in a friendly competition with the exception of the people who work for the same company (http://drupal.org/services).
To do as you're suggesting seems inevitable in your mind, making Drupal unfriendly to developers who make a living from it, is lifestyle suicide for too many of the people with that power. At least in my case, it's beneficial to keep Drupal restriction-free to make my work as easy as it can be. I think your doom-y undertones are quite unfounded.
Note, I say "we" merely to include myself as someone who makes a living from and because of Drupal.
Good day David, In no part
Good day David,
In no part of my reply stated that I am planning to draw any salary or compensation for my role within DA. Neither was I questioning the existing developers; as stated repeatedly in my application, I have the aim to build up an ecosystem of developers by both student level outreach and support/encouragement for developers of all types (GPL-support type developers and non-GPL product type developers) without discrimination.
With regards to the 3PD comments, as per my original post in the application, I stated the following:
I have been using Drupal for slightly over a year; I found Drupal after growing weary of the Joomla! vs. 3rd Party Developers war that was waged and was inspired to start after reading a post from Dries blog supportive of commercial drupal outfits at http://buytaert.net/commercial-drupal-training and made my decision to stay and grow with a CMS that is run by a matured and level headed management team, lead by a leader that is clear on the direction of the project and more importantly, respects the fact that entrepreneurship and Opensource projects goes hand in hand.
I did not state that the situation in Drupal was bad or doom-y, I was stating I aim to ensure that such a situation (Joomla! core vs 3PDs) would not happen. How the entire Q&A within this thread topic of the "voice of developers" morphed into the issue of GPL was honestly not within my scope at all.
going nowhere
Right, you never said you wanted a salary and you didn't question the existing developers.
I'm hung up on the comment about "defending developers right," which is what I commented about originally. "Defending" suggests there's a movement or person to defend against, which I haven't seen.
Saying developers have "rights" with regards to Drupal is also bothersome. I'm not legal-minded, and I don't want to give the impression I know what I'm talking about with licensing, ownership, or GPL, but my entitlements alarm went off - just one of those gut things. In my mind, the only one that has rights is the licensor, and so many people have contributed to Drupal, it's hard to imagine that even Dries owns much more than the trademark anymore. I just don't think it's something someone would have said if they knew Drupal beyond the code, docs, and interface. That's why I'm against your application.
Apples and oranges
RE: "defending developers right to make a living" and "I aim to ensure that developers that operate on any other business model that is not GPL, they will have their place within the community"
The GPL is not a business model. The GPL is a license. Obviously, from your other comments, you know this, but I am confused as to why you bring them up as related.
Part of the beauty of the community is that *anyone* can have a voice, and a role -- all are judged on the merits of their contributions, nothing more, nothing less. It's pretty transparent.
The developer community has always been at the heart of Drupal. However, statements like, "I believe that Opensource projects that embraces and actively builds a strong commercial 3rd party developer pillar will not only grow, but thrive as users are able to benefit by having a vast selection of themes, modules and services and as service providers are encouraged to contribute to the growth of Drupal and its users and to make a just wage for an honest service provided." from your initial statement seems to imply that service providers are not encouraged to contribute back, and that people are not "making a just wage for an honest service provided." These statements are wildly inaccurate.
While this is probably not what you intended, your statements can be read as impying a mistrust of open source development processes. The usability work you describe sounds great, but how is it different/better than what is already occurring -- see http://groups.drupal.org/node/7929 and http://groups.drupal.org/season-usability -- moreover, there is nothing stopping *any* developer working under *any* business plan from contributing to this ongoing work, or from doing their own. Things get done by people doing them, and there aren't any real obstacles in the way of motivated individuals.
I'm also a bit confused by what you mean when you say "3rd party developer ecosystem" in this context: "Continue work on building up a vibrant 3rd party developer ecosystem, able to meet key areas of drupal work for end users, including but not limited to theming houses, software packages and turnkey site development services" -- how are 3rd party developers any different than the professional development shops currently in existence? From what you describe, it sounds like "3rd party developers" is a euphemism for people who don't want to contribute code back under the GPL. As I've said before, there aren't any barriers to this work happening now. Association involvement isn't necessary for this.
Basically, any developer wants to work with Drupal, can work with Drupal. They could before the Association was formed; they can now, and they'll be able to as long as Drupal is around. This is just as true of developers releasing code/themes back under the GPL as it is for 3rd party developers releasing no code back to the community. However, Drupal has grown to where it is today in part because it is a GPL project, and because of the active developer community writing GPL code. And yes, many of these developers "make a just wage for an honest service provided." -- and they write GPL code. These elements aren't mutually exclusive.
Which is all a long way of saying: You can do everything you describe without being in the Association. It seems like the association will provide a platform for you to achieve your goals. As an association member, how will you listen to members of the community and work with them to achieve community goals, even when they are not in sync with yours?
Good day Gerald, I did not
Good day Gerald,
I did not bring up the relation between the GPL and business models. It started with Gerhard's reply to my post reply to Angela on my reply on clarifying my stance on providing a voice to various developers referencing to the "Joomla! vs 3PD war". Somehow he co-related my support of the developers to my acceptance and encouragement of violating the GPL. How that co-relation came about is not something I would be sure I can explain. His post is as quoted.
Thanks for mentioning http://jcd-a.org . Due to their (and apparently your) creative interpretation of the GPL, I'll refrain from voting for you in the upcoming election.
By my statements on encouraging all forms of developers, I was making a reference to Drupaltin as an example of a developer who is not permitted to put it as an official module on Drupal site because it integrates a non-GPL software into Drupal. If a "free" project is not welcomed, what more chargeable modules?
My view is that sometimes, the existing community has its own voice and its own clique. If I was expected to speak only in that voice and not in a voice that the community has not heard before, I would not be adding any value apart from following the flow. I aim to provide an alternate voice, one that addresses things not yet seen and known. But from what I can see so far, perhaps a voice of constructive dissent is unwanted at this present time.
Hello, Nicholas, Thank you
Hello, Nicholas,
Thank you for your response.
RE: "perhaps a voice of constructive dissent is unwanted at this present time" -- I would not confuse people disagreeing with your viewpoint as being unwelcoming of the conversation. This is what constructive dissent looks like -- people share their viewpoints, and talk them through. Part of the reason I responded on your app was *because* of the opportunity for constructive dissent.
It's also worth noting that the present attitudes within the Drupal community (and yes, there are differing opinions on just about any topic you can imagine) have been arrived at after much hard work and thought.
Constructive dissent involves listening as well as talking. You can speak in your own voice while listening to those of others -- a good advocate needs to be a good listener.
Which gets me back to my original two questions:
1. "how are 3rd party developers any different than the professional development shops currently in existence?"
2. "how will you listen to members of the community and work with them to achieve community goals, even when they are not in sync with yours?"
Thanks,
Bill
Good day Bill, In response
Good day Bill,
In response to your questions:
1.) I used the term 3PD as a general, all-encompassing reference to any development house/one man shop. I did not make any differentiating points apart from making references to the support of whatever business model they would adopt (GPL support-type business model or product-sale type business model) as a statement in response to webchick's post. What I meant by referencing the term 3PDs in my conversation is on the vision I see in the future where the developer base would be in the hundreds, if not thousands of development houses, software product houses and freelancers and of their representation, contributions and operations within the body of Drupal.
2.) As with any non-profit organization work, I see my role in the association more as a facilitator/voice; I may have a stance on a matter but it will always boil down to whatever feedback is received on the ground. and then acting onto it professionally and in accordance to what needs to be done. Notwithstanding the previous statement, this does not mean I do not vocalize my views or concerns in areas which I feel is essential, and of which my expertise permits.
great, thanks
Thanks for the extremely well researched responses here.
I don't currently have a strong feeling on this issue or on how the Association should act (or not act) with respect to the GPL. I'm not sure if your opinion on this issue is consistent with all developers or even most of them, but I think that it is a valuable opinion from the perspective of having a diversity of viewpoints. It also does feel to me now that you have done a lot of research on this topic so my apologies for assuming that you hadn't read that thread.
If nothing else I encourage you to join http://groups.drupal.org/legal and read/contribute to http://groups.drupal.org/node/6318
Regards,
Greg
Thanks for mentioning
Thanks for mentioning http://jcd-a.org . Due to their (and apparently your) creative interpretation of the GPL, I'll refrain from voting for you in the upcoming election.
A full day..
I've been reading this application and the response and last night I formulated my response but I sat on it for a full day before replying.
Nicholas' application is impressive. He's incredibly articulate and has put a lot of time and effort not only into this application but into his thoughts and ideas around opensource, the Drupal community and his business module. I admire his ability to respond to these comments and do so with an amazing amount of respect and well defined points and references.
I honestly believe that Nicholas would add a new voice to the Drupal B.O.D and bring well thought out and defined ideas to the B.O.D.
Now with that said and with all due respect to Nicholas, and I do mean that honestly, I would not vote for him. If he were on the Board I would watch it like a hawk and I would get deeply involved with the affairs of the Drupal Association to ensure that the ideas that Nicholas has put forth are NOT carried through.
The discussion over 3rd parties and over licensing is simply headed in the wrong direction and I would argue that its actually backpedaling the Drupal project, the Drupal community as well as the GPL. I am seconding Killes opinion on the http://jcd-a.org in that their incredibly bold and outrageous interpretation of the GPL is completely wrong.
I say interpretation of the GPL because I think people often times get too hung up on the legal aspects. The jcd-a claims to be in their full legal rights and I'm not even going to argue it. What I will say is that building a module on top of Drupal and then encrypting it to restrict access to the source code is a slap in a face to the community regardless of legality. It violates the principles and the purpose of the GPL.
This would then segway into a discussion of GPLv3 and why that is so important and why it has to be taken to such extremes (e.g. this right here)
This is not a lengthy debate and I'm not attempting to start a debate here thus please do not respond back with a retort to this. I'm more than willing to discuss this topic just not here.
Nicholas: Please do not take this as a response to your personal character. You are obviously an incredibly smart person that is most likely a very successful business person. I would love to sit and talk with you about all manners of things. On this topic, however, I strongly disagree with you.
I seriously urge you to get involved in the Drupal community in the legal section so that your ideas could flow. As wrong as I may think they are I still want to here/read them.
Good day Jacob, Thank you
Good day Jacob,
Thank you very much for your kind words. I also do note that you have been doing good work with Drupal in China and I would love to catch up with you for a drink when I make a trip up in the near future.
As I mentioned in my previous reply, I did not and have not stated any support for the violation of the GPL. How the topic from "defense of developers" morphed into "Nicholas supports the violation of the GPL as per the jcd-a stance" is seriously beyond me. I brought that site up as an example of what happens when a project has a standoff with its developers, but not as a sign of support of the steps taken (ie. encryption of modules).
I honestly am tired of wondering how a simple statement and an example can be morphed into something completely not even of my stance.
My apologies
I apologize for falling into the same trap. When I read your response to killes...
If providing a voice for the "other types" of developers is sinful and distasteful enough to warrant a vote of no-confidence, I would gladly welcome and accept this vote of non-confidence than to have a vote of confidence in return for me selling of my entrepreneurial values of a fair wage for an honest day's job.
I took it as a vote of confidence in the jcd-a even though you said you did not interpret the GPL creatively (they also said they haven't interpreted creatively). Additionally your comment with Laura, which, no offense, seems misconstrued to me as I've met and somewhat know Laura and I couldn't imagine saying that the GPL is restrictive. Restrictive is a strong word especially when you consider that the GPL is specifically designed to take the restrictions out of other licenses (i.e. others restrict you from distributing, others restrict you from the source and the GPL is ensuring you have access without restriction).
It's all mostly language but some pretty dangerous language in there.
I'd love to meet up with you when you're in Beijing next or if I ever make it to your neck of the woods. As I said before you have good ideas even if I may not agree with all of them. OSS is still going through a growing period wherein you have multiple business models and people are trying to figure out which one is best and which one works. I'm not exactly sure if this is the right time for Drupal to have this sort of shakeup though. There is way too much talk on licensing and "skirting" the line and the spirit of the GPL in this conversation and your app for my taste.
I'd still like conversation on this outside of the elections as its interesting. The main thread that jcd-a points to is incredibly disturbing to me especially because as I read it the less I want to work in the Joomla! environment and the more I want to fight the jcd-a. I shudder just thinking about it (the thread).
Again good app!
Good day Jacob, On the Laura
Good day Jacob,
On the Laura part, it was a cut-and-paste of her post in the GPL discussion; I did not make any comment about her, all I did was to quote her and her stance as a reference in my post.
I would probably be in China a bit more this year as my company is in explorations to working with a student entrepreneur group (ASES China) in spotting and supporting talented young startups in their entrepreneurial journey. That would probably get me to Beijing about once every quarter/half a year and it would be good if we can do lunch then. Alternatively, if you are visiting Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand or Vietnam we can catch up then if I happen to be in the area (particularly Malaysia these days).
Thank you for your heartening reply and have a wonderful week ahead!
Thank you for your vote of non-confidence
Good day Gerhard,
Thank you for your review of my application; it is good for any aspiring candidate like myself to have both good and bad public opinions on issues that matters most to the association and I thank you for your opinion.
EDIT: Just to be clear, in my application I have not interpreted the GPL "creatively", the main point I have been addressing is on the encouragement of all forms and types of developers (GPL-types and product-types) to work on Drupal. If providing a voice for the "other types" of developers is sinful and distasteful enough to warrant a vote of no-confidence, I would gladly welcome and accept this vote of non-confidence than to have a vote of confidence in return for me selling of my entrepreneurial values of a fair wage for an honest day's job.
Separation between association and Drupal software project
Hi Nicholas, thanks for your extensive application. You certainly have an impressive and skilled background. I think you'll make a great ambassador for South East Asia. I'd like to address your goals.
1) Initiate advocacy-and-adoption activities within South East Asia.
This is a great goal and is perfectly inline with what the Drupal association should be doing.
2) Improving on usability by better bridging users and developers terminology, requirements and expectations.
The association is to support the Drupal project, but not actually get involved in setting the direction of the software Drupal project. As this goal explicitly aims to do this, you should re-evaluate your understanding of what the association is doing, and how you can best achieve this goal by working with the Drupal community, rather than through the association for this goal.
3) Set the ground right for a supportive and vibrant 3rd party developer representation within Drupal Association.
One of the concerns in setting up the Drupal association is the association could have a similar outcome to what happened with Mambo. In short, the association could attempt to hijack the Drupal project. We've explicitly put in place barriers to keep the association out of the business of Drupal software development. It seems you want to introduce that lobbying into the association, which is counter to what the association is meant to do. Could you please review the statues for the association and indicate how you'll keep the association out of the software business, not influence the Drupal software development process, and at the same time meet the needs of contributed modules developers. I don't think what you are proposing is wrong, I just need more clarity how you plan to achieve this goal.
Thanks,
Kieran
Response to Kieran
Good day Kieran,
Just to be clear, I do not aim to be involved in the Drupal development; I am not a programmer. I see my role to be more of providing both a channel to listen and a voice for both end users and 3rd party developers within the Drupal Association. This is in line with the statutes, particularly those that I have put in bold:
1.1.4 Article 4: Goals
Section 1: Description
The purposes of the Association shall be for providing support in developing, communicating, promoting, distributing the Drupal project and in deploying an infrastructure in support of the Drupal project.
The scope of the “Drupal project” shall include the following specific issues:
the Drupal open-source software system (http://drupal.org), the community of developers and users of this software and all associated activities and all infrastructures in their broadest sense considered to be required to further develop this project.
To address point 2, my understanding is that the Drupal Association goal is to allow the end users to have a voice; it can be clearly seen that newbies are looked upon with disdain (ie. do a search, that's not what others want, want it? program it yourself messages are common) and that as much as Drupal has been growing, due to the lack of measures put in place to gather and harvest these much needed feedback from the end user community, the growth is still not going on at full steam. I aim to give these users a voice and to put in place a feedback system that would allow the end users to truly communicate and be heard.
I do not aim to disturb or involve myself in the development of Drupal; I aim to provide a clear avenue for the end user to be heard amongst the programmers, and I see myself being in a unique position to communicate these feedback, on a regular summarized basis to the Drupal development team in a "bigger picture" manner rather than a complaining manner. I personally feel that this would address the duty of communicating the needs of the projects from an end user perspective to the team.
To address point 3, my goal of lobbying for 3PD is (again) to allow developers to have a voice; it is not my intention to have the Drupal association to develop/sell software or to represent any single 3PD. As mentioned above, I believe that any Opensource project supported by a strong 3PD pillar flourishes, and it is my intention to ensure that these brave entrepreneurial people have a voice and are not only recognized but encouraged to grow, as their growth will also grow Drupal; the Joomla! vs 3PD war is an example of what happens when the management team stops listening to the 3PD community and I aim to prevent such an alienation from ever happening by my role within the Association.
In summary, I seek to be a person that provides a voice that will be heard for the 1.) users and 2.) 3rd party developers and in doing so, achieve the objective of the Drupal Association as written above in the areas of communication and promotion.
Great response
Thanks for clarifying your position. You should know that despite complaints there is a lot of listening going on.
For the 44 000 issues filed, there were 160 000 follow-ups. For every support topic filed on Drupal.org there is an average of four responses.
Your position seems to be to influence the development process via the Drupal association. While I think you have a noble goal, it should be done directly through the community and not via the association, in my opinion.
Cheers,
Kieran
2nd response to Kieran
Good day Kieran,
I understand that there is responses to filed issues; what I was looking at was more towards issues that are never filed because of 1.) user lack of comprehension of the system and inability to articulate the problems (a good example would be to put a stock Joomla! and Drupal installation and see how users use them both; Joomla! has only 3 major terminology "mambot/module/component" while Drupal has "taxonomy/node/story/book/cck/etc" and new users fumble) and 2.) fear of posting due to seeing the scathing response given by the community towards newbies. As mentioned I am more of a businessperson and end user, and the type of contribution that I would expect to bring to the table would be non-technical, usability and adoption type.
I would agree that perhaps this role I am proposing is not yet seen to be inline with the association's current manpower requirements; I would be glad to contribute in either the "Legal Affairs Director" position (my understanding of law is based on the UK subset that is practiced in Singapore) or the "Local Events Coordinator" for Singapore and Malaysia (for 2008).